Throughout pop music history, there have been many record-breaking artists worthy of being crowned as pop royalty. And in a recent episode of the "No Such Thing" podcast, the hosts bring up a heated debate, asking the question: Is Taylor Swift bigger than Michael Jackson?

"No Such Thing" hosts Manny, Noah, and Devan dig into the numbers with guest Chris Dalla Riva — data analyst and author of Uncharted Territory — to explore how streaming, touring, and cultural impact shape the idea of "bigness" in music today. The episode breaks down Taylor's staggering modern metrics, including album sales and her record-breaking "Eras Tour," while also comparing them to Michael Jackson's global legacy. Chris points out that streaming-era success can distort historical comparisons, noting that 150 streams equal one "sale," a metric that didn't exist during Jackson's peak.

They shared, "Comparing Taylor Swift and Michael Jackson is like comparing two different musical universes," later adding, "Streaming changed everything — 150 streams equal one sale, and that shifts how we measure success."

Touring becomes a major point: Taylor’s Eras Tour sold nearly 10 million tickets, but Jackson's "HIStory Tour" reached countries most pop stars never tour, giving him a global cultural presence that still resonates today. They said, "Jackson toured places few modern stars ever go. His global reach was unprecedented."

The hosts also explore how each artist influenced their era. Jackson became a worldwide symbol through music videos and pop innovation, while Swift dominates fandom culture and fan engagement in the digital age. Ultimately, the show lands on a nuanced conclusion: both artists define their generations — just in completely different ways. They explain, "Taylor isn’t just popular — she’s engineered an entirely new era of fan-driven music culture," adding, "More people may know who she is now, but Michael Jackson is still bigger in cultural footprint."

Debate Taylor Swift vs. Michael Jackson with the "No Such Thing" podcast on iHeartRadio.